They yelled. They screamed. They waved their hands and stridently argued their positions.

The argument, held after an Undergraduate Student Government (USG) meeting earlier this semester: Whether the USG vice president could cast a vote when there was a borderline two-thirds majority on an issue, or whether he could only vote in the case of a 50-50 tie.

In their knowledge and passion for Robert's Rules of Order -- the widely acknowledged authority on parliamentary procedures that govern meetings -- Ralph Crivello, USG Senate Internal Affairs committee chairman, and Shawn Gordon, an adviser to USG, are probably unusual among the Penn State student body.

However, recent statements by leaders of the University Park Undergraduate Association (UPUA) have sparked a debate among student leaders about exactly how important knowing and following the rules is.

At last Sunday's UPUA meeting, UPUA vice president Mitch Belding said he didn't want to be a "stickler" to Robert's Rules. UPUA president Jay Chamberlin expressed similar sentiments in past interviews, saying he didn't want strict adherence to the rules to inhibit progress at meetings.

"We want to have a meeting where we can accomplish something without constant interruption," Mallory Gold, UPUA media relations director, said. "The entire goal of the UPUA executive board is to make things happen."

However, Gordon, who addressed UPUA members during last Sunday's open student forum, disagreed. He said in an interview Wednesday that it is important to follow all the rules -- even if people think some rules are a "pain in the ass."

"To just simply say 'We're not going to be strict' is kind of bogus," he said. "There's no halfway really. You either follow the rules or you don't."

Gordon said UPUA could be less strict about the specific wording of parliamentary motions, but the actual motions still needed to be used.

Gold said Belding and Chamberlin both had previous experience with Robert's Rules, but Belding was still getting used to running the UPUA meetings. She said he "misspoke" when he said he didn't want to be a "stickler" to the rules.

"I just think it was a big misunderstanding. We weren't trying to shut people out," she said. Belding did not return phone calls by press time.

Ricardo Torres, UPUA academic affairs chairman, said he hoped the UPUA executive board would take steps to educate UPUA members about Robert's Rules.

Torres, also the USG Academic Assembly president, said all assembly members are briefed on basic parliamentary motions to take actions like raising issues and holding votes. He said the training helps to limit confusion and keep meetings concise.

"As we evolve as an organization, it's going to be essential," Torres said of UPUA. "Otherwise, those meetings are going to be really, really long."

Gold said the UPUA executive board had discussed how to train members, but did not have a definite plan. She said the issue would probably be discussed at Sunday's UPUA meeting, which will be at 8 p.m. in 314 HUB-Robeson Center.

The meeting was originally scheduled to be just a work session for UPUA committees, but Gold said there will be a brief general meeting beforehand so that UPUA members can finalize some position appointments. Gold said the general meeting would be open to the public, but the committee meetings would be held in closed executive sessions so that committee members would be able "to get to know each other better."