A week ago, I met with Steve MacCarthy, Penn State's vice president for university relations, to talk about open records. We spent about an hour discussing the university's position on open records, and I learned a lot. I also learned that Penn State and I will just have to agree to disagree.

In my quest for open records, I asked for some specific expenditures for the university's Board of Trustees.

My request was formally denied by the university, and I was pointed to a Web site.

A few years ago, Penn State put its budget online, making it easier for people to access.

Prior to that, the budget was available in the campus library and in libraries across the state -- because public tax-payers help fund Penn State.

The Web site, www.budget.psu.edu, has a lot of information on expenses at Penn State, but it can be difficult and time-consuming for anyone to sift through.

Also, it doesn't give budget breakdowns, just general categories and sums.

The university has a policy against giving out specific information about individual finances, such as salaries or benefits.

Penn State tries to be efficient with its spending -- it's at the bottom of the barrel for state funding when compared with competitors -- so it doesn't want other schools to pick off key faculty by offering higher salaries.

However, there is a public document called the Stairs-Rhoades Report that lists average salaries for university employees. MacCarthy said keeping salaries under wraps also prevents people from being upset about what their coworkers make.

He said he's seen bitter infighting at other universities and institutions, and from a managerial perspective, keeping salary information closed lets Penn State employees be rewarded based on performance rather than giving straight raises to everybody across the board.

Penn State is a smart spender, he says, justifying many of the expenses I asked about.

The university justifies holding trustees' meetings in Manhattan and Washington, D.C., in part by the millions in donations for operations and scholarships that result from these visits.

Also, the trustees get hotel discounts and other underwritings from generous alumni, making the trips to big cities more affordable for the university.The university has cut back on publications, travel and more to mange better with what it is given -- some of the lowest per-student funding in the Big Ten.

I know about budget freezes of millions in state money, and I believe that the university is indeed fiscally responsible.

But if it operates so well, why not make detailed financial records available?

The university's response returns to privacy.

MacCarthy cited salaries again, and likened making them public to making student grades public.

I think that's flawed logic, but I'd make my grades public to anyone and everyone if it would get Penn State to open its books.

There are many things that aren't personal or salary-related, such as how much the university spent on its electric bill for a particular time period, or how much is spent on a particular contract, such as the Napster deal.

These are specifics that the Penn State budget information doesn't get into.

Although I'd like Penn State to make more records available, they don't have to do it. Legally, the university is not covered under the state open records law.

Some students sued a few years back, and the courts declared that even though it gets approximately 12 percent of its budget from Pennsylvania's legislature, Penn State is not a state agency.

Thus, Penn State's lawyers don't want the university to respond to anything that smacks of an open records request.

There is a form letter (mine was waiting for me when I got home from my meeting last week) that says, essentially, "Hey, we're not subject to open records laws, so we won't acknowledge this."

It's a legal protocol point.

If you simply called and asked for some information that the university makes public, you could get it, but if you invoke the open records law, you are going to be automatically shut down by the university.

So, to put it bluntly, I don't suggest writing an open records request to Penn State.

But there is something you can do.

You should play around on the budget Web site, and see how much you can learn.

It takes a little clicking to find specific items, but you can find out random, interesting stuff, such as the fact that the School of Information Science and Technology's dean's office spends about $1,500 a year on freight charges and more than $70,000 a year on travel.

The listings aren't any more specific than that.

I mean, I'd love to know what kind of specific freight IST sends, or how many professors were able to use the travel budget to attend useful academic conferences.

But this Web site is the closest you'll get to finding out how your ever increasing Penn State tuition dollars are being spent.